[Cro Dreoilin] "Shoulds"
Amanda Ochs
madamebunn at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 1 23:38:48 MST 2011
Sebastian,
I was amused, as well as a bit concerned, by the thought of being coerced into worshiping a divine being, god or goddess because of fear of their wrath. To me, it smacks of a certain god of the Jews, or Christian Old Testament belief in Yahweh/YHWH, which is part of our Judeo-Christian cultural heritage in America.Contemporaries of ancient Jews often saw YHWH as a jealous local god, perhaps somewhat insecure and blustering, as a god of slaves in Egypt and a provincial people in Judea to imperial Rome. This is not to say that other gods from other polytheistic faiths can't be angry for people not worshiping them. However, in a reconstructionist tradition, I believe you have to be careful of inserting your cultural worldview, rather than bending to another tradition with fidelity, as Chris and Kelley have pointed out.
I myself have had some yelling matches with YHWH and would like to announce I have not yet been smote off the planet by that patriarch YHWH. I've decided if he can't deal with me not worshiping him, he wasn't much of a god to begin with and can go sulk in his heaven. Other divine beings take note.
I've lost some sight of the original question about "Shoulds", but there is a worldview from Egyptian belief that I found to be hilarious, sobering and very refreshing. I am throwing it out there just as another worldview, not as my worldview. The ancient Egyptians would sometimes curse their gods or threaten them with NOT worshiping them and that their descendents would follow suit if the god would not meet their supplications and prayers. The Egyptians believed that gods were fed on the energy given to them through worship and their power as beings was fed in large part from human prayers. In other words, the gods themselves were subject to the rules of relational exchange and not able to be arbitrary or selfish. The Egyptians believed that the gods would diminish and fade without human worship, so it was a big deal to curse the gods, not what would now be seen as hubris and unholy under a more Judeo-Christian outlook, likely to get you
smote off the planet by the omnipotent YHWH.
One question I have on this thread of worshiping due to fear of a god's wrath is "what is the difference between humility and self-abasement?" I would characterize any relationship based on fear as a sort of coercive relationship, even if it were with a divine being. In many ways, to offer worship out of a stance of self-abasement is offering a lessened form of worship. It is to say that ultimately what you have to offer (time, energy, prayers, love) comes from degradation. I believe one may be humble, but retain dignity. I realize that may seem like a contradiction in terms to our cultural worldview, but genuine self respect seems to be part of the Celtic tradition in what contact I have had with those gods.
I personally would not worship a being just to avoid their annoyance or wrath. Those who believe or worship in demons/demonic forces often take that line of argument: "If I don't worship/appease Grand High Poohbah Demon, then it will chase and devour me into the seventh circle of my interdimensional undertakings". If you insert something less silly, such as YHWH, God, or whatever Kemetic being demanded your worship while meditating this morning, you may laugh a little bit and thus see my point.
Amanda
________________________________
From: Chris Redmond <redmond at astronomytower.net>
To: community at crodreoilin.org
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Cro Dreoilin] "Shoulds"
On a related note, is "they will be pissed" actually enough of a reason
in any case? Suppose that a God of, say, the Kemetic tradition had
taken an interest in you, and you know that he/she would be annoyed if
you did not respond in kind. Would you choose to worship this God
purely to avoid divine pissed-offedness?
-- Chris
> So two questions:
>
> 1. What values do your answers represent?
>
> 2. Why should you worship the Gods that call to you rather than, say,
> Gods you have chosen? -- or picked randomly out of a hat? You have an
> answer in "they will be pissed"; is there more to it than that?
>
>
> -- Kelley.
>
>
> Sebastian wrote:
>> I should follow the god(s) that call to me because I respect them and
>> wish to build a lasting relationship with them.
>> Or in some cases, "I should follow the god(s) that call to me because
>> otherwise they will be pissed."
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Donna Miller <dmiller at faerealm.com
>> <mailto:dmiller at faerealm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Okay, let me go at it. I do not follow Celtic spiritual
>> traditions, being more drawn to ancient Persian spiritual
>> traditions. I follow Celtic musical traditions which is tied
>> into Celtic spirituality no matter what the Irish will tell you.
>> I still know nothing about the Celtic reconstructionist
>> traditions other than what Chris and Kelly taught us at the
>> Jeffco CUUPS event.
>>
>> My own take on religion is that it exists, not for the god(s)'s
>> sake but for the purpose of building society. The rules of the
>> religion will mirror the religious community's strongest values,
>> not the other way around. What "offends the god" is what
>> disrupts society. Religion exists for man, not for god(dess)(s).
>> Yet the worship of a god strengthens the value that said god
>> represents.
>>
>> What are the shoulds that build Celtic Reconstructionist society?
>> You are very open in belief but there should be guidelines set
>> down that are forbidden. Usually they have more to do to the
>> needs of the people in it than the tradition at hand.
>>
>> Enlighten me.
>>
>> DSM
>>
>>
>> On 11/26/2011 8:39 AM, Kelley Forbes wrote:
>>
>> Alrighty, let's play the game:
>>
>> "You should follow the God(s) that you feel call to you,"
>> because -- ?
>>
>>
>> -- Kelley & Chris.
>>
>> Katie Murphy wrote:
>>
>> Yes, definitely, you should follow the God(s) that you
>> feel call to you, rather than the God(s) that your
>> parents/family/what have you expect you to
>> follow/worship. Like, Brad's parents expect him to be
>> Christian but it was never really true to him.
>>
>> However, I can understand the importance of stopping and
>> checking ourselves for outside (say, Christian)
>> moralistic views when it comes to approaching daily life
>> and our Gods.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Greyhart
>> <greyhart at castle-luna.com
>> <mailto:greyhart at castle-luna.com>
>> <mailto:greyhart at castle-luna.com
>> <mailto:greyhart at castle-luna.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> I think what both Sue and Katie are trying to get
>> across, is that
>> it is
>> better to honor, worship, follow, whatever, the Gods
>> who call you,
>> rather
>> than the God(s) your family expect(s) you to. I may be
>> wrong on
>> that, but
>> that's what I'm getting from their posts.
>>
>> Greyhart
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: community-bounces at crodreoilin.org
>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org>
>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org
>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org>>
>> [mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org
>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org>
>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org
>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org>>] On Behalf Of
>> Kelley Forbes
>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:01 PM
>> To: community at crodreoilin.org
>> <mailto:community at crodreoilin.org>
>> <mailto:community at crodreoilin.org
>> <mailto:community at crodreoilin.org>>
>> Cc: Kelley Forbes
>> Subject: Re: [Cro Dreoilin] "Shoulds"
>>
>> I think wanting to do something is, truly, very
>> important; it is,
>> however,
>> only peripherally related to what I was saying.
>>
>> There are different parts that "wanting" can play when
>> we are
>> talking about
>> living up to our values. We can want something
>> physically or
>> emotionally or
>> mentally or spiritually/philosophically. Sometimes those
>> different wants
>> can come into conflict. We can, for instance, choose
>> to do
>> something we
>> would otherwise not want to do, because we also want
>> to live up a
>> certain
>> set of values.
>>
>> The crux of it is that, even in this situation, we
>> need to be able
>> to say
>> what value or values we are living up to. When we are
>> specifically dealing
>> with aesthetic wants and choices, if we find ourselves
>> substituting the
>> "because it will ..." phrase with " ... because I want
>> to," too
>> often, it
>> can be an indication that we are masking moralistic
>> behavior. In
>> this case,
>> "wanting" can mean the internalization of societal
>> norms to the
>> point that
>> we can't separate our own choice from what we have
>> been brought up to
>> believe is true.
>>
>>
>> -- Kelley.
>>
>>
>> Katie Murphy wrote:
>> > I like what Sue said about this. I think that doing
>> something out of
>> > obligation isn't as meaningful as doing something
>> because you
>> WANT to.
>> >
>> > --Katie
>> >
>> > On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:21 PM, sue blackmore
>> > <sblackmore1966 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com>>
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>> >
>> > It has been said that the best reason to do anything is
>> because we
>> > want to. So we say please, step out of our comfort
>> zone and
>> > venerate our gods not because we should or its
>> polite or the
>> gods
>> > need it but because we want to.
>> >
>> > On Nov 20, 2011 3:08 PM, "Charlotte Blackwood"
>> > <charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com
>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com
>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com>>
>> > <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com
>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com
>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>> >
>> > You are so cool :) Thanks for that email :)
>> >
>> > On 11/20/11, Kelley Forbes
>> <forbesk at astronomytower.net
>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net>
>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net
>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net>>
>> > <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net
>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net>
>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net
>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net>>>> wrote:
>> > > One interesting thing this topic of "needs" has me
>> thinking
>> > about is the
>> > > place that "shoulds" have in our religion.
>> > >
>> > > In a values-based aesthetic, there are no independent
>> > "should" actions
>> > > or rules; there are no "thou shalts" or "thou shalt
>> nots".
>> > Every time
>> > > you think of yourself as "having to" or "must" or "should
>> > do", then you
>> > > should be able to complete the phrase "because it will
>> ____".
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "I should open the door, because it is hospitable to
>> do so."
>> > >
>> > > "I should say 'please', because I am acknowledging the
>> right
>> > of the
>> > > person to say no, and that builds independence and
>> community."
>> > >
>> > > "I should step out of my comfort zone, because it is
>> > courageous."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If you catch yourself having a bunch of "should" thoughts
>> > and not being
>> > > able to complete that sentence, then you need to ask
>> > yourself what
>> > > ethics you are caring around with you that are someone
>> > else's rules,
>> > > most likely picked up from our decidedly moral-based
>> culture.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -- Kelley.
>> > >
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://crodreoilin.org/pipermail/community/attachments/20111201/55ca1c23/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Community
mailing list