Ok,<br><br>Excuse me for being outraged about this particular subject, but I have been following this trump issue and have become rather vocal about it. I'm mad and being mad never helps to argue about a subject. Perhaps venting is what I need? Anyways I'll try and explain my perspective as best I can...<br>
<br>First and for most when Trump decided to drop this bomb in the political arena I believe he did so to get maximum media attention and giving him a chance to win a particular group of Americans to his cause. The facts are that Obama's birth certificate is/was available from the very beginning. Every American can have access to what is called the short form of a birth certificate. The long form of a birth certificate is only available to the person in question. This is to protect the persons identity in question. So, when Trump came out and questioned Obama's citizenship, he knew that some people would want to believe that Obama was not born in this country. Others would attempt to find out and try and get the full (long) birth certificate and find out they did not have access to it. I really believe as do millions of other Americans that this stunt was a political attack motivated on the lack of respect (even hatred) that some people have for our president. The tea party is one of those groups that is looking for something like this to get behind. Trump provided the fuel and now the tea party is running with it. It is interesting to note now that the hole thing is now back firing on Trump and will probably be a political liability to the Republican party.<br>
<br>I could make a case that because Trump can't seem to create a business that doesn't go bankrupt that we should have access to his personal finances to determine if he is fit to run this country or not? I don't think it would be received well by Trump. Who knows, perhaps that question will be asked later of him assuming he gets the percentage he needs to run for president?<br>
<br>I think in the next years a lot is at stake for our country and we could well see the beginning of our county become a third world nation if things continue as they are... I don't want to see that become a reality. I don't want the richest people in the world dictating how we should live our lives. I will fight for a world were all races and beliefs can live together and respect one another. Granted we will never live in a perfect world, but we can make a difference to be that much closer to perfection.<br>
<br>Shaun<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Chris Redmond <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:redmond@astronomytower.net">redmond@astronomytower.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Given how new this forum is, I guess this is a good opportunity to seek some agreement amongst ourselves about how we want to use this list. Kelley and I don't intend to restrict the conversation forcibly (e.g. through moderation), but I think we'll all get more out of this forum if we have some shared sense of what belongs here and what belongs elsewhere.<br>
<br>
For myself, I'd particularly like to avoid arguments of insults. That's not to say that I'm afraid of a good argument -- debate is a vital part of the culture in CR, and I fully expect to have some good solid knock-down drag-outs. But there's a difference between arguments of ideas and the taking of sides over personal attacks. A good debate sparks new ideas and strengthens our understanding of what we thought we already knew. An ad hominem argument has no value to anyone but the instigator.<br>
<br>
<br>
-- Chris Redmond<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
Kelley Forbes wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
I think it is a good thing that you are standing your ground, but please do not call others "racist" without something to back it up.<br>
<br>
"Racism", as it is commonly used in conversation, means the belief that people are inherently different due to their race or treating them differently because of it. Please tell us how asking Obama for a birth certificate is racist and how asking why asking for Obama's birth certificate is racist, is also racist. "It just is!" will not be accepted for credit; neither will "You ought to know!"<br>
<br>
Perhaps politics and religion should not be mixed on a group level, and you will certainly not hear us say you must have a certain political view to practice at Cró Dreoilín. All of our personal political views, however, should be informed by our religious views, and vice versa, so that we may be integral humans.<br>
<br>
Those personal views need not be held back within the religious sphere of our lives, either, and certainly not here. If nothing else, it gives us a chance to hone our debating skills, in the traditions of our forebears.<br>
<br>
An opportunity, Shaun, which I am presenting you with, now.<br>
<br>
-- Kelley.<br>
<br>
<br>
Shaun Vavra wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hey, I'm just calling a duck, a duck. I'm not going to sit by while others make racist remarks of contribute to the notion. It is when good people do nothing that we lose our humanity. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for /good men/ (people) to /do nothing/." - Edmund Burke (1729-1797).<br>
<br>
On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:00 AM, Joy Phelan <<a href="mailto:joy@frppd.org" target="_blank">joy@frppd.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:joy@frppd.org" target="_blank">joy@frppd.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Shaun,<br>
<br>
I don’t appreciate your attitude or tone. This is not a place to<br>
pick a fight. If you cannot support your thoughts and opinions<br>
with clear, concise statements that invite discussion, then please<br>
don’t post. I don’t know what your problem is with Greyhart, and<br>
frankly I don’t care, but I don’t need to see it dramatized online.<br>
<br>
Abundant Blessings,<br>
<br>
~Joy<br>
<br>
*From:* <a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a>><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a>>] *On Behalf Of *Shaun Vavra<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:55 AM<br>
*To:* <a href="mailto:community@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community@crodreoilin.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:community@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community@crodreoilin.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re: [Cro Dreoilin] An interesting article<br>
<br>
Yep, yep and yep... It is racist and hiding the fact means your<br>
condoning it. If you don't understand, that is your problem.<br>
<br>
On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 7:08 AM, Sebastian <<a href="mailto:jsburns@gmail.com" target="_blank">jsburns@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:jsburns@gmail.com" target="_blank">jsburns@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
@guenhwyfar<br>
<br>
I was unaware that there was any tax revenue generated by this<br>
wedding. If there wass a substantial amount of tax on this event,<br>
would you mind citing for me where you go that information (not<br>
being snide, just curious). Also, there has been a big to-do about<br>
royal weddings since there's been royalty. Prince William getting<br>
hitched is following tradition, not a PR move.<br>
<br>
Thank you Kyle for your post. I was just about to say the same<br>
thing, but you go to the computer first.<br>
<br>
On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Kyle Linklater<br>
<<a href="mailto:jklinklater2814@gmail.com" target="_blank">jklinklater2814@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jklinklater2814@gmail.com" target="_blank">jklinklater2814@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Sean, the same could be said about you. You are not answering the<br>
question put forth by Greyhart, but putting him down for asking a<br>
question.<br>
<br>
This is a discussion group. Let's discuss, and not attack for<br>
these childish reasons. I personally think that mixing politics<br>
and religion is a mistake. This is why. Is it racist to ask for a<br>
proof of birth? Not really. It's the end reason that determines<br>
that. If someone asked me for my BC, I'd be a little confused as<br>
to why they might need it, but there are valid reasons overall.<br>
And categorizing someone as racist for a question like that is in<br>
poor taste. I would then be able to put silly and probably untrue<br>
labels on everyone in this discussion because of what they have<br>
said. Will I? No.<br>
<br>
Just sayin'...<br>
<br>
On Apr 30, 2011 11:32 PM, "Shaun Vavra" <<a href="mailto:metalartvavra@gmail.com" target="_blank">metalartvavra@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:metalartvavra@gmail.com" target="_blank">metalartvavra@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> Hey greyhart,<br>
><br>
> Is it that you want us to believe your confused? Ignorant? My<br>
guess is<br>
> that you are neither and are quite happy to continue being<br>
racist. So,<br>
> having a discussion with you would be like trying to convince<br>
Nixon that the<br>
> ends doesn't justify the means.<br>
><br>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Greyhart<br>
<<a href="mailto:greyhart@castle-luna.com" target="_blank">greyhart@castle-luna.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:greyhart@castle-luna.com" target="_blank">greyhart@castle-luna.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I guess I’m confused. How does asking for a birth certificate<br>
make one a<br>
>> racist? Also, if no one is leading, how will anything get done?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Greyhart<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *From:* <a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a>> [mailto:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a>>] *On Behalf Of *Shaun Vavra<br>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 30, 2011 11:33 AM<br>
>><br>
>> *To:* <a href="mailto:community@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community@crodreoilin.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:community@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community@crodreoilin.org</a>><br>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Cro Dreoilin] An interesting article<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> It is amazing to me how much interest Americans seem to have<br>
for the<br>
>> royals. I'm not a big fan of monarchs or the belief that we<br>
have to support<br>
>> them. To me it fosters the notion that some human beings<br>
deserve more<br>
>> attention than others for the sake of birth alone. If you<br>
haven't figured<br>
>> out by now, we still live in a class based society and here in<br>
America that<br>
>> notion is very alive. We can have an idiot like trump get on<br>
national TV<br>
>> and ask our president to present his birth certificate to all.<br>
What a<br>
>> racist! Frankly I'm tired of the crap that is going on and felt<br>
the need to<br>
>> speak out about this. My hope is that some day we wont need<br>
monarchs, we<br>
>> wont need class elites to run our world and we can live closer<br>
to the Earth<br>
>> and respect one another for who we are.<br>
>><br>
>> Shaun<br>
>><br>
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Sebastian <<a href="mailto:jsburns@gmail.com" target="_blank">jsburns@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:jsburns@gmail.com" target="_blank">jsburns@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> It's interesting that the author regularly brings up the idea<br>
that the<br>
>> Prince is doing this to become a king of the kind that will<br>
ensure a<br>
>> bountiful land, but does not consider how far back the mammoth<br>
cost of the<br>
>> wedding is going to impact Britain for years to come.<br>
>><br>
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Gary Begordis<br>
<<a href="mailto:draken8000@aol.com" target="_blank">draken8000@aol.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:draken8000@aol.com" target="_blank">draken8000@aol.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Probably making it up but perhaps at least taking some from the<br>
past. One<br>
>> can hope. I thought it was a really interesting article.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:22 PM, "Greyhart"<br>
<<a href="mailto:greyhart@castle-luna.com" target="_blank">greyhart@castle-luna.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:greyhart@castle-luna.com" target="_blank">greyhart@castle-luna.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > The idea of a marriage to the land is certainly known by Wiccans.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Having watched the wedding, I can say that there was a lot of<br>
sermon<br>
>> > involved after the actual vows. The author also talked about<br>
how the<br>
>> Druids<br>
>> > are making a comeback in Britain, but since they are a<br>
revivalist branch,<br>
>> > not Reconstructionist, are they really reclaiming heritage,<br>
or making it<br>
>> up?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Greyhart<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>> > From: <a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a>><br>
>> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@crodreoilin.org</a>>] On Behalf Of Kelley Forbes<br>
>> > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 9:31 PM<br>
>> > To: <a href="mailto:community@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community@crodreoilin.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:community@crodreoilin.org" target="_blank">community@crodreoilin.org</a>><br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Cro Dreoilin] An interesting article<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Oh, yeah, that happened today.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Thanks for the link. The author definitely takes a Wiccan<br>
viewpoint, but<br>
>> > it brings up some interesting subject matter.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > One of the more interesting parts to me was the assertion<br>
that Brittain<br>
>> > "is actively reclaiming her heritage". Do you all think this<br>
is true?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -- Kelley.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Greyhart wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Today's royal wedding looked at from a different point of view.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Royal-Wedding-Marrying" target="_blank">http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Royal-Wedding-Marrying</a> <br>
>> > -the-Land-Star-Foster-04-28-2011?offset=0&max=1<br>
>> >><br>
>> > <<br>
>><br>
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Royal-Wedding-Marryin" target="_blank">http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Royal-Wedding-Marryin</a> <br>
>> > g-the-Land-Star-Foster-04-28-2011?offset=0&max=1><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I had thought about this, but only because the wedding was<br>
the day<br>
>> >> before my birthday.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Greyhart<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> >><br>
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