[Cro Dreoilin] "Shoulds"

Kelley Forbes forbesk at astronomytower.net
Thu Dec 1 15:45:45 MST 2011 

I am not so sure the question " What are the shoulds that build Celtic 
Reconstructionist society?" applies much to CR.

Most of us come to CR not through culture but through calling; there are 
very few who have been raised in any sort of Celtic polytheist family. 
So, for most of us, we have to find our way to the culture's world view. 
You can't really say that "The rules of the religion will mirror the 
religious community's strongest values," when such a community has yet 
to exist. Rather, the community will mirror the values.

Second, your question kind of presupposes a moral-based ethics, rather 
than a values based ethic. There are no "rules of the religion" in a 
values-based ethic; that was my point with the initial post. You can say 
that you value community (which would actually be true in a Celtic world 
view), but exactly how one "should" act to fulfill that value is not 
laid down.

One of the interesting points about any reconstructionist religion is 
that (outliers who came to the religion with values and world view 
already established aside) one must bend their needs to fit the 
tradition, rather than the other way round, as you put it.


-- Kelley.

Donna Miller wrote:
> Okay, let me go at it.  I do not follow Celtic spiritual traditions, 
> being more drawn to ancient Persian spiritual traditions.  I follow 
> Celtic musical traditions which is tied into Celtic spirituality no 
> matter what the Irish will tell you.  I still know nothing about the 
> Celtic reconstructionist traditions other than what Chris and Kelly 
> taught us at the Jeffco CUUPS event.
>
> My own take on religion is that it exists, not for the god(s)'s sake 
> but for the purpose of building society.  The rules of the religion 
> will mirror the religious community's strongest values, not the other 
> way around.  What "offends the god" is what disrupts society.  
> Religion exists for man, not for god(dess)(s).  Yet the worship of a 
> god strengthens the value that said god represents.
>
> What are the shoulds that build Celtic Reconstructionist society?  You 
> are very open in belief but there should be guidelines set down that 
> are forbidden.  Usually they have more to do to the needs of the 
> people in it than the tradition at hand.
>
> Enlighten me.
>
> DSM
>
> On 11/26/2011 8:39 AM, Kelley Forbes wrote:
>> Alrighty, let's play the game:
>>
>> "You should follow the God(s) that you feel call to you," because -- ?
>>
>>
>> -- Kelley & Chris.
>>
>> Katie Murphy wrote:
>>> Yes, definitely, you should follow the God(s) that you feel call to 
>>> you, rather than the God(s) that your parents/family/what have you 
>>> expect you to follow/worship. Like, Brad's parents expect him to be 
>>> Christian but it was never really true to him.
>>>
>>> However, I can understand the importance of stopping and checking 
>>> ourselves for outside (say, Christian) moralistic views when it 
>>> comes to approaching daily life and our Gods.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Greyhart <greyhart at castle-luna.com 
>>> <mailto:greyhart at castle-luna.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     I think what both Sue and Katie are trying to get across, is that
>>>     it is
>>>     better to honor, worship, follow, whatever, the Gods who call you,
>>>     rather
>>>     than the God(s) your family expect(s) you to. I may be wrong on
>>>     that, but
>>>     that's what I'm getting from their posts.
>>>
>>>     Greyhart
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: community-bounces at crodreoilin.org
>>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org>
>>>     [mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org
>>> <mailto:community-bounces at crodreoilin.org>] On Behalf Of Kelley Forbes
>>>     Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:01 PM
>>>     To: community at crodreoilin.org <mailto:community at crodreoilin.org>
>>>     Cc: Kelley Forbes
>>>     Subject: Re: [Cro Dreoilin] "Shoulds"
>>>
>>>     I think wanting to do something is, truly, very important; it is,
>>>     however,
>>>     only peripherally related to what I was saying.
>>>
>>>     There are different parts that "wanting" can play when we are
>>>     talking about
>>>     living up to our values. We can want something physically or
>>>     emotionally or
>>>     mentally or spiritually/philosophically.  Sometimes those
>>>     different wants
>>>     can come into conflict.  We can, for instance, choose to do
>>>     something we
>>>     would otherwise not want to do, because we also want to live up a
>>>     certain
>>>     set of values.
>>>
>>>     The crux of it is that, even in this situation, we need to be able
>>>     to say
>>>     what value or values we are living up to.  When we are
>>>     specifically dealing
>>>     with aesthetic wants and choices, if we find ourselves
>>>     substituting the
>>>     "because it will ..." phrase with " ... because I want to," too
>>>     often, it
>>>     can be an indication that we are masking moralistic behavior.  In
>>>     this case,
>>>     "wanting" can mean the internalization of societal norms to the
>>>     point that
>>>     we can't separate our own choice from what we have been brought 
>>> up to
>>>     believe is true.
>>>
>>>
>>>     -- Kelley.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Katie Murphy wrote:
>>> > I like what Sue said about this. I think that doing something out of
>>> > obligation isn't as meaningful as doing something because you
>>>     WANT to.
>>> >
>>> > --Katie
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:21 PM, sue blackmore
>>> > <sblackmore1966 at gmail.com <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:sblackmore1966 at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >     It has been said that the best reason to do anything is
>>>     because we
>>> >     want to. So we say please, step out of our comfort zone and
>>> >     venerate our gods not because we should or its polite or the
>>>     gods
>>> >     need it but because we want to.
>>> >
>>> >     On Nov 20, 2011 3:08 PM, "Charlotte Blackwood"
>>> > <charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com>
>>> > <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:charlotte.blackwood at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >         You are so cool :)  Thanks for that email :)
>>> >
>>> >         On 11/20/11, Kelley Forbes <forbesk at astronomytower.net
>>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net>
>>> > <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net
>>> <mailto:forbesk at astronomytower.net>>> wrote:
>>> > > One interesting thing this topic of "needs" has me
>>>     thinking
>>> >         about is the
>>> > > place that "shoulds" have in our religion.
>>> > >
>>> > > In a values-based aesthetic, there are no independent
>>> >         "should" actions
>>> > > or rules; there are no "thou shalts" or "thou shalt nots".
>>> >         Every time
>>> > > you think of yourself as "having to" or "must" or "should
>>> >         do", then you
>>> > > should be able to complete the phrase "because it will
>>>     ____".
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "I should open the door, because it is hospitable to
>>>     do so."
>>> > >
>>> > > "I should say 'please', because I am acknowledging the
>>>     right
>>> >         of the
>>> > > person to say no, and that builds independence and
>>>     community."
>>> > >
>>> > > "I should step out of my comfort zone, because it is
>>> >         courageous."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > If you catch yourself having a bunch of "should" thoughts
>>> >         and not being
>>> > > able to complete that sentence, then you need to ask
>>> >         yourself what
>>> > > ethics you are caring around with you that are someone
>>> >         else's rules,
>>> > > most likely picked up from our decidedly moral-based
>>>     culture.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -- Kelley.
>>> > >
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>>> > "We've begun to long for the pitter-patter of little feet - so we
>>> > bought a dog. Well, it's cheaper, and you get more feet. "
>>> > ~Rita Rudner
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>>> "We've begun to long for the pitter-patter of little feet - so we 
>>> bought a dog. Well, it's cheaper, and you get more feet. "
>>> ~Rita Rudner
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